Hi there,

I received yesterday a SONT TC-D5 Pro II. I have seen it in photos and read comments about its quality, similar to the D6C.

I liked so much the design with the two VU meters, and it seemed to me that it belongs to an era when build quality was driven by other rules.

I was right. I bought it without knowing the real condition, but I suspected it was in good to very good one. What I didn't know is that it actually is NEW, com-ple-te-ly new, never-ever used. Like NOS, actually.

And I'm impressed with this beauty, it's awesome!

I have to say that it's, undoubtely, one of the most beautiful machines I have seen, and probably has the best built quality I have ever seen in a device so far. This thing is really impressive. The attention paid to every fine detail is simply awesome...

More on: it works perfectly, and sounds so good! It's difficult to perceive differences between this and the D6C in a recording without Dolby. Probably slightly less highs. The VU meters are so cool!

So, I'd like to ask you if you think this is actually a walkman or falls in an intermediate cathegory between decks and walkmans.

Another question: how would you compare it with the Marantz PMD430? (not only in terms of features, but in audio quality recording and playing).

Thanks,

To be able to compare the TC-D5 to the PMD/CP430 would require having both.

I only have the Marantz, so would not be able to compare it to the Sony.

index.php?board_oid=193392314111653483&content_oid=193392314111921440

my experience

the d5 pro 2 has more bass, more body, more mature sound, more analog feeling.

the d6c has better mids and highs, more clear/detailled, sound is more narrow.

the d5 pro2 is more fun

d6c = critical listening

Thanks,

@Plop: How do you compare with the D6C? And what about dbx? I haven't any deck with it, so I know very few about it. How does it perform? I see that it has a bias knob and three heads; does it work like the ones in hifi decks?

@19lexicon78: You compare them (D5 and 430) with the same kind of tape; recorded in a third tape or with two tapes recorded each one in each deck?

the D cells in the TC-5 last forever --

its a great machine --

the Marantz version is a 3 head unit --even better !

i dont have a 430.

my d5 is in very good condition but a check-up can improving sound. still, i prefer a deck for recording tapes. my tck555 es mk2 is a better deck than a d5. curious about the revox 215,which need to be revised.

imo the d5 should have been fully balanced.

The CP430 (euro version of PMD430) I have, has a sound profile that reveals slightly more bass and mid level ranges than the DC2 and much more than the dead pan flat D6C.

I don't record using the dbx, so cannot comment on that feature of the CP430.

There is fine bias adjustment for recording and also a pitch controller for playback.

The 3 head design works just like any full size hifi cassette recorder. You can monitor the recording as it is being made. Make adjustments for levels, bias etc.

There is also a level limiter too. Like the TC-D5, recording level adjustment is channel independent.

An optional rechargeable NiCD battery pack (directly charged via the input power jack) was also available.

Speaker is channel selectable with a choice of L, R, or L+R

Microphone has 0,-15,-30dB attenuation; with stereo or mono mode.

Sockets are :-

1/4" stereo jack for headphones

1/4" jacks per microphone channel (L is also stereo jack)

5 pin DIN for line in/out

RCA phone for line in/out

Thanks Plop,

So the CP430 has then a not so flat response curve, right? I'm surprised that you call the D6C "dead pan flat", because I feel it very rich, crisp, detailed and open sound. But I'm talking about my 'super-D6C' modded by Dr Walkman, and not the standard one.

I can't tell about the DC2 because mine has the center gear broken (and now is in Dr Walkman's lab being repaired).
If I connect my JDlabs CMoyBB to the D6C and switch on the BB (bass boost), it simply sounds amazing on my Sennheiser HD280Pro. And this D5 too, but as detailed as the D6C.

So I suppose that the CP430 has to sound very well too.

Why don't you record with dbx? I'm curious to know. I read that tapes recorded with it cannot be played without it.

Regards, 

I did not mean my comment in a negative way. I quite like the fact that with such a neutral response the detail can be revealed, and so I find the standard D6C a good reference player (and recorder). Yes it has a very detailed playback, but for "more fun" listening, the DC2 is my choice of the two. Perhaps the sound would be different from a first generation D6C with the original amorphous head and its reputed better low end response, but as it is I am basing my comments on a standard 1st generation SMD based D6C.

I don't record with dbx because I'd only be able to listen to any dbx recordings with the CP430 since it is my only player with this particular noise reduction.

Hi Plop,

    Not many collectors know that a dbx portable decoder was made called the PPA-1. I have a NIB one.  It allows you to play dbx encoded tapes on any cassette player.  It is amazing the ability that you can be playing a blank tape with all the hiss then turn on the PPA-1 and near total silence.   Just be careful when recording as dbx does NOT like  higher saturation levels.  Keep peaks to 0 or +2 max.  They are very rare but still worth keeping a look out for on ebay.   Here is link to my topic on dbx and Panasonic J20X which is nearly completed repairs by retrodos.

LINK ERROR.7#193392314111854497

Also topic on dbx system how it works:

index.php?board_oid=193392314111653483&content_oid=193392314111854332

PPA-1

I decided to add a table with the main specs for both, to see clearly the differences:

I just read that D5m and D5 Pro II have more differences apart from the XLR mic connectors: the D5m has a better head that pushes the freq.resp to 20-18.000 Hz (chrome) and line input.

Oh, I misunderstanded you then. I don't like plain sound too; I prefer to apply a bass&treble amplification, but I feel the D6C to have one of the most pleasant neutral, plain, sound. So when you apply a EQ of your choice it sounds excellent.

I prefer to bypass the integrated sound effects/EQ of the player, and to apply an EQ outside the player, because I think that there's no single player that offers all: some have pretty good EQ, but lacks the base sound quality; others have excellent base sound but lacks EQ...
I tried the SONY SEQ-5 EQ but for my taste it has low quality: so many 'hiss' is added to the result. A CMoyBB is very good, although I'd like to try a parametric DSL on a Sony DD. The D5 ProII also sounds very close to the D6C with the CMoyBB; excellent too!

Aha. But, did you try to record and play in the very same CP430 to see how it performs?

Thanks, Plop.

Very curious that PPA-1 dbx portable unit, John. Truly a rarity. I'd like to have one of those.

Thanks for sharing!

Don't know where you got the specs for the Marantz, but this what I have for it :

Oh, you run faster ;-) I have seen that it seems to exist inconsistencies between two documents from the very same brand: the user manual and the service manual, but didn't yet comment it. You took the data from the last one; me from the user manual.

Here is mine:



In fact, I took the SNR from the service manual, as I don't believe it's only 50dB without dolby.

As I saw those inconsistencies, I decided to get the worst data of both, except the SNR.

It's strange that this two documents are so different...

I can only suspect that the document you have is an older one.

This is the same leaflet but for the CP430. It matches that for the service manual.

Hmmm, very strange.

So, what does that mean? I think of two options:

a) My manual is wrong, and they corrected it in the second version

b) Our manuals are right, and the decks, different. Newer versions may have better specs.

What do you think?

For the DC2: I have observed my copy sounds less flat, slightly more dynamic than my 1st unmodified D6C as well.

My newly restored 2nd D6C has some of the caps replaced with higher quality replacements, and I have yet to compare it with the DC2.

That D5 looks stunning. It really was made to handle a long and rough life as field equipment. Makes the D6C look cheap in comparison.

I think there has been a matter of "continual improvement" as the trade would say, given that the service manual that reflects the same data is for both the PMD430 and CP430.

i do have both the sony 5 and the 430 -

but i dont do measurements or such critical listening to notice

any difference in sound qualities -

to me --they both sound better than my d6c

I think I discover the difference: in you scan it says: "frequency response at 25 dB below 0 VU", while not in mine...

Thanks Bub and redbenjoe for your comments.

Yeah, it's surprising that side by side, the D6C looks cheap while the D5 looks really first class

I finally managed to buy a Marantz PMD430 in the last weeks. It's in excellent condition, very few use.

I did some testing with it, and what I found is that:

- the first impression is worse than the D5. specially if you have a mint D5. So much plastic in the front, and a plastic that feels a bit cheap, so different than the few used in the D5 (operation buttons) which looks excellent.

- The build quality is good. Apart from the plastic front, the rest is metal. the design and the attention paid to detais is clearly worse than the D5 (IMHO). The design of the D5's Vu meters is far more beautiful.

- It has many more controls: MPX, dbx, bias, etc..

- It has three heads, and this puts it in a higher level in this area. It's the first 3-head deck I have. I never played with something like this, but this is a very nice feature, indeed!

- It has so many connections, both inputs and outputs. However, the phones connector sounds SO bad. Really bad. so much noise, very mudded. I was scared at first by this, but quickly discovered that the line out is completely different, much higher quality.

- The playing quality is excellent. Not so plain as a D6C, but with the bass and mids slightly enhanced. This leads in better subjective experience. However, I still prefer a D6C with a CMoyBB (with bass boost). Here you can see the response curves of both "walkmans":

where you can see the D6C to be more plain and the Marantz to have more bass, mids but much less highs. This test was done with Maxell XLII recorded in the D6C in both cases.

- the recording quality is excellent too, and has the same personality as mentioned: slightly enhanced bass and mids.

- It has Bias calibration. I never had a deck with this, and I'm still playing with it and learning about this. Any detailed info/tutorial for Bias?

- It has dbx. I still played only a bit with this, but first test showed an impressive dynamic range (S/N), much higher than Dolby C. Playing a dbx recorded tape without it is SO bad and strange.

all in all, an excellent portable deck with almost all the features than a good HIFI deck, and I'm enjoying os much with the 3-head and the DBX. Very happy to have both :-)

Hope you like the review

Good to see my hearing experience is reflected in your graphical analysis.

There is a cosmetic difference, with your PMD430 and my CP430. The lettering is in gold on the PMD430 and in white on the CP430. I agree the front part is very plasticky and utilitarian, however the 430 offers much more in terms of features to where it loses out in style.

A quick and simple way to adjust bias on a three head unit is to tune out an FM radio to static and record that noise. Then roughly calibrate by ear the tone from the tape to match the source.

Alternatively if you set up a tone generator with say sine wave @ 1000Hz when recording and adjusting the bias from - to + you will see the VU meter fall at a constant rate as you apply bias. When it flattens out then you have reached the point where bias is having an effect on recording quality, you can then finely adjust the amount of bias to suit your recording. Depending on the tape the VU meter may even rise slightly before flattening out to then later rise constantly again, this would be the most optimal point of adjustment.

Many thanks for all your info, Plop.

Yes, there are not so slight differences between Euro and US models. I like the US version the most, but it seems that's easier to look at the head in the euro version.

I tried to follow the user manual when adjusting bias, so I generated white noise (that I learned it's the same kind of noise than FM) and started to record while listening to the third head. I tried to get the maximum level of highs, but I didn't understand what exactly do I have to reach, because if only I have to get the maximum I always have to keep the knob to one side.

So now I want to try your recommendations so I learn to adjust it properly.

Now I remember that what I did to adjust the bias was to look at one Nakamichi user's manual, where says all that about FM noise. In Marantz manual says about music, not FM noise.
Yesterday I was playing a bit with it, listening to the difference between source and the third head. The sound isn't always the same, but I think I got the idea.

I also recorded some songs with dbx and, boy, I'm impressed with this system. The performance is awesome! Almost no noise is heard while playing, and the music keeps the same (not highs cut, like many cases with dolby C).

For doing my audio tests, I spent a few months doing a careful selection of songs that show many kind of sounds and characteristhics. I selected 12 songs, going from clasical to hard rock, though pop, dance, blues, live or electronic.
I made a high quality, no compression 12 minute mix using low compression (or uncompressed) files with a professional grade video editor. In this 12 minute audio test you can find:

- Dynamic range 
- Soundstage, 
- Many kinds of bass: through those found in Blues, electronic or disco 
- Voice, both isolated (man and woman), smooth and broken, etc... 
- Guitar (electric, acoustic) 
- Surround effects (Black or white, Michael Jackson) 
- Live recordings (U2, AD/DC)

You can listen to my test file (or download it to record in your own tapes and do your own tests) here:

http://soundcloud.com/thewalkm...songs-for-subjective

I try to embed here. Let's see if it works...

Any comment will be appreciated!

I have had an idea today. As this Marantz sounds great but lacks a more plain response, I thought it would be a good idea if I could obtain a more plain response... specially when recording.

My sound card has a great, superb quality, 10-band EQ. As I normally record on tapes from digital music in my computer through this sound card, maybe with the EQ and the help of the third head we can...

Yes!

I generated pink noise at -20dB, connected the line out to the line in of the deck and recorded it with the Marantz on a MAxell XLII-S tape. I switched to monitor tape and I got this curve with my real time analyser:

where it can be seen that this deck enhances the mids and bass, as Plop already stated. So then I adjusted the Bias using the recommended protocol, and I got this:

Which shows a better curve, but it is still not plain. Not bad at all, but I want it completely plain, as my superb D6C modded by dr Walkman.

So here comes the EQ. I started to slowly and carefully play with the sliders to push mids and highs and also the deep bass, and finally got this:

that's it! I got it! Finally I could homogeinize the slight irregularities of the response curve with a -slight too- EQ curve, that goes like this:

And, boy, this deck sound SO GREAT now.

I recorded my sound test file with DBX and I was really impressed of how it sounds.I really was speachless.

This DBX system leaves excellent highs and a impressive dynamic range, that is up to 10 dB better than the best Dolby C systems (at least by paper), entering the 80-90 dB of dynamic range, where the CD systems mostly are...

Hi john,

Thanks for adding such interesting info! I received last week another PPA-1 like yours! I find this gadget so cool! The star in the box with a design that remembers the sheriff is so funny, haha.

I was so lucky to find a NOS one for a ridiculous low price (19,99$). I really though I will never find one, because I have been looking for one since I first saw yours, that I absolutely didn't know until then.

Mine works but the quality is not so high compared to the integrated DBX system in my Marantz. Maybe they are of different kind of systems, as I know dbx has different methods of reducing noise.

The box's design is simply... well.. to keep saved ;-)

Here are the contents of the box:

And here is the gadget itself, completely new:

And here you can see it connected to my AIWA PX303:

seeing your photos I imagined it to be bigger, but it's not so big as I thought.

Plop, I tried this weekend the method you explained above but no sucess. With an 1kHz sine tone I saw no differences when rotating the knob from min to max setting.

As I see, the bias has effect at 10kHz and above, just in high frequencies. Maybe you wanted to say 10kHz?

Yeah I meant 10,000Hz, but you passed the test nonetheless.

Hugo that is a very special find the PPA-1 NIB.   Mine was also NIB.   I too find the quality of the PPA circuits not as good as my dbx 224x unit that I use with my Nak deck for making tapes.  My guess is the PPA was forced to be price sensitive to be able to entice buyers to spend the money for this.  It was limited badly by the lack of dbx tape decks that included dbx compression technology in that era thus most people could not make a dbx encoded tape.  

   I have said in my other topics on dbx that the ability to eliminate tape hiss and the dynamic range was superior to dolby C.  Glad your one of the first to really properly make a tape and hear the amazing difference dbx makes for tape recordings.  Even though the PPA quality of decompression is not as high as say your Marantz it still offers IMO a much better sounding tape from a Walkman than using the dolby C on Walkman.

   Here is link to great dbx site showing all equipment, owner manuals and service manuals. http://vintagedbx.free.fr/ 

I am VERY pleased with my dbx 224X and my dbx 2015G equalizer.  You should look into getting the dbx 224X or the best one 224X-DS and buy a few dbx encoded vinyl discs.  I truly can tell you the dbx records offer the finest recorded audio sound next to a live performance that any recorded medium can produce.  Records were very expensive in the 80's but now you can buy for $12 to $25 USD.    The 224X can be found on ebay and purchased for $100 to $175.  I believe you will find it probably has even better sound than the Marantz can produce.

Thanks John.

your information is always very welcomed and rich.

I didn't ever see a vinyl disc recorded with dbx but it could indeed have a better SNR (signal to noise ratio) than a dbx recorded tape.

I'm pretty happy with the improved response curve I made with the EQ, that definitely made much better sound.

for you guys that would have a decent digital sound card that features a good EQ, all with excellent quality (more than 100dB of SNR) and don't want to spend a lot of money, I definitely recommend you a good sound card for your laptop. you can buy something like the Creative X-Fi Notebook if your laptop has an ExpressCard slot (54mm type):

you can find this card here for a bargain price, indeed.

and if you prefer a modern one, or your laptop has an expresscard 34mm type slot, then you can buy this one:

I have the first one in my Windows 7 x64 laptop and I can tell you that it sounds almost equal than my superb X-Fi elite that I have in my desktop PC. And it has the same 10-band EQ!

With a card like these you can have an excellent source for your recordings (wether Dolby C, dbx or any at all). You may only have to look for excellent audio files (like good quality MP3 or other sources).

John, I'm impressed by your gear: two dbx racks and a revox deck. I have never seen a revox deck and I never knew about them until a few months ago. Were they available also in europe? I never seen that brand, and it looks to me that they were only in the US.

But I've read about them for being excellent, indeed high-end decks. Which one is yours? It looks very advanced.

I have a "basic" Nakamichi BX150 deck, fully working and recently serviced that I'm planning to sell as it's incoming soon a fully serviced by the grand Dr Walkman, Nak RX-505.

On the one that I use regularly, the headphone jack has some hiss, but the line out is silent.

I have not tested the boxed one.

That a nice 1985 Revox B215, was consider to be one of the world best with 4 motor directdrive, no belts, no clutches, no mechanical brakes, the pivoting headblock being the only moving part. Twin, independent capstan motors, each with its own PLL system are locked to a common quartz crystal. The Portescap reel motors are directly coupled to the cassette hubs. Braking is entirely electronic, the whole transport being under the control of THREE Philips microprocesors.

Do have that same deck but I need to restore it, is in brandnew condition and does work, but the light blue Philips capacitors DO short out and going to change the standard CMOS 4000 series analogue switches (4051, 4052, 4053 and 4066) for a more modern 74HC4051, 52, 53 and 66 chips add a couple of FETs to drive the 74HC4066 and hope that will also improves the sound quite a bit, because dragon still sound much better and wow and flutter is less. The Revox still takes the dragon by it's looks and built quality, transport is the best design that I've ever seen, but disapponted by ths sound quailty and it's drift 1-7/8 ips +/- 0.3%.

retrodos,

i have a b215 completely revised/checked. only problem, tape speed when playing. it isn't stable. how to solve tape speed problems? do you have to replace a chip?

Mine has so many hiss. Many more than even the worst walkmans I have in my collection. This surprised me as I can't believe that this is a flaw design or a common problem of every deck manufactured. The line out is perfect, indeed.

It's more likely the 2 of the 6 capacitors on the DD motor board that controlled the timing for the DD motor, that cause the speed instable I would replace them all, also check the pinch rollers, if they are hard, they need to be replaced. 

This board is the one you have to change the capacitors on. It the board that connect to the motors and is held in with one screw sideways.  

everything was replaced.

according to the technician:

the problem seems to be the servo motors

Those motors don't usually fail, the reel motors maybe, due to sticky lubrication overtime, easy way to check that is see if the reel turn smooth without pressure. But doubt that the issue, they are good quailty motors. Only way to narrow the problem is to probe the DD trimming board and monitor.  

I would check inside and look for any Frako and Philips capacitors and make sure they were replaced, the philips are blue in color and the frako are bright yellow, I replaced mine with old stock audio grade ROE's and some Nichicon Gold and Panasonics, same brands I use on NAK's. Stick with Japanese capacitors. These need to be replace otherwise will shortout and take out the power diodes, and transistors, just somewhat fixed mines and had to rebuilt Powersupply and DD trimming board and works at correct speed now, had the same problem, just have to work on dolby NR board and four panel lights

Also check the pinch rollers they will cause that problem two.

everything is replaced with panasonic, there are no philips and fraco's in this 215

i've send pm to see photo

It could be very well it the pinch rollers, or the force, as they are known to go bad on this deck and cause the speed stable issue. I would clean them with rubber rejuvenator and see if it make any change, if it does then they need to be change. It also could be the force may need to be adjusted, you do need a force testing guage, left sure be  3.0 n +/- 0.2n and right 4.8n +/- 0.2n, as you don't want them to drag the capston, also check arm make sure it doesn't blind up

Did he take apart the capston servo and clean them? You remove the clip in the back to removed the flywheel and then remove screw to take apart the motor and bearings to service them. Lubrication does become sticky on these cause them to blind and not turn smooth. sure be able to spin the fly wheel easy on these and keep turning after a second. Would also service the reel spooling motors

What is your view on the Technics RS-646DS?

Looks pretty nice and in the same style as the Sony D5M / Marantz CP430. Has anybody listened to one or has any experiences with such a machine? What would be a reasonable price for one in good shape?

PS. There is an even nicer RS-686DS model with 3 heads and other features but its pretty rare - have not seen one up for sale yet.

I think it will do anything between 15 and 45 euros over here. Depending how well it works and the looks. I'm a BIG fan of the D5 myself, so it's not on my list. But I can imagine it's a real nice machine too! i would say, try it and let know how nice it is.

Unfortunately the one pictured is being sold for EUR 150 and for me it is simply too expensive for what it is - I would rather save up some more and go for a nice D5M or a Sony ES single well tape deck.