Hi colleagues,

In the past months I didn't updated my website with new articles, reviews or anything remarcable.
that's because I'm spending most of my free time playing with oscilloscopes, audio measurements and all those things.
I really want to know where are the limits of the tape technology: how good does sound their best quality. How good/bad does sound a standard walkman, a budget walkman. How does it sound an excellent wow/flutter, etc..

during this time, I have done a lot of measurements over about 20 different walkmans, to know how they score in the different areas that can be measured. I'm doing all that because I want to add good technical info in my walkman reviews.

I'm really amazed by the quality of the D6C and their recordings, but also the TC-D5 and the Marantz PMD430 and some other walkmans.

What I want to share with you now is a simple quiz:

What walkman sounds better: an old SONY TPS-L2 or an AIWA HS-JX707?

the TPS-L2 is well known for being the very first walkman (well, at least, the first with the walkman logo). I reviewed it in my website (gallery > sony). It's rather old and it hasn't any "cool" feature like autoreverse, dolby, remote or LCD. but it has a good mechanism.

In the other side, that AIWA JX707 represent the top of the top from that brand. It has almost everything that a walkman can have: remote, lcd, digital tuner, metal body, dolby C, BBE, amorphous head (although it seems not to be really amorphous), etc.. but it also lacks good components, and it's very common that capacitors are all dead these days. Mine has been serviced by a professional technician here at BCN. He changed every capacitor, belts, etc..

For doing audio tests, I did a careful selection of songs that show many kind of sounds and characteristhics. I selected 12 songs, going from clasical to hard rock, though pop, dance, blues, live or electronic.
I made a high quality 12 minute mix using low compression (or uncompressed) files with a professional grade video editor. In this 12 minute audio test you can find:

- Dynamic range
- Soundstage,
- Many kinds of bass: through those found in Blues, electronic or disco
- Voice, both isolated (man and woman), smooth and broken, etc...
- Guitar (electric, acoustic)
- Surround effects (Black or white, Michael Jackson)
- Live recordings (U2, AD/DC)

So I took both units, inserted an UXPro with the audio test recorded with my D6C, connected them to my sound card and recorded the sound. I named the recordings "A" and "B"

This is the result of the walkman "A":



and this is the recording with the walkman "B":



so, which one is "A" and "B"?

Take in mind that for proper judgement can only be done if you have good headphones and a decent sound card in your computer.
Alternatively, you can download both files and record them on a CD so then you can test it in your HI-FI.

will the old, bulky but long-lasting mechanism of the TPS-L2 or the high-tech, newer technology embedded in the JX707 win?
I think this poll is not as easy as it seems...

UPDATED: I updated the reference tape and recorded it again with the Walkman "A", now without the background noise caused by the power supply of the D6C.

Can't say which is which, but 'A' definitely sounds a lot better than 'B'.

'B' sounds like it needs a good service. Possibly even its azimuth corrected.

Btw, on both recordings there is the same high pitched background whine. Is this from the source or from the D6C?

A Definitely sounds better more detail on higher end.

B head azimuth is way off, sound dull and speed off by a little notice alot of crackle?

Also notice the high pitched tone on both, which seem like coming from sound card could be impedance issue, or PSU from computer nosie. Could be also coming from D6C oscillator when you recorded the track. The only way you know if you plug in headset directly into that walkman and still hear that sound.

This is just as a reference, a fully service and calibration Dragon connected directly to line in, of course you have youtube compression, but the way a cassette sure sound, this is without dolby NR on.

Watch in HD

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JOIF1W4xi7g&feature=relmfu

Re YouTube, I just listened to it and really liked it. Sounded akin to the Monkeys. Nice to see a Nak Dragon also!

Regards the two Souncloud files, A sounds better, B is just too rolled off in the treble and also sounds for want of a better word cheaper, totally agree with retrodos and plops comments. Hurodal, which is which?

Hmmm, you are right, there's a high pitch hiss. But this is strange...

That noise was not noticeable at all when playing. I think it's a problem of the software recorder, that changes gain while monitoring the input signal.

I don't think it's a problem of the sound card, or the PSU or computer. I'm using a pretty good PSU: a 580W Tagan, which is one of the best PSU available, and the motherboard is a high-level Asus model.

I'm out of home now, but I'll check when I'm back. But I can assure you that the noise was not noticeable at all.

The fact is that when you hear the end of a song and the beggining of the next, the hiss goes smoothly (but quickly) up and then down, so this confirms the recording level was changed while recording.

But that's a problem of the audio recording software included with the sound card. In fact, I think I know which option I have to uncheck next times.

However, you can test the recording without evaluating the background noise ;-)

And, c'mon guys... place your bet ;-) Which one do you think they really are?

Until you service walkman 'B' it isn't really a fair comparison.

The background whine is very likely from the computer. I had this when recording from a discrete macbook pro once. I have no idea if that whine and beeping is affecting my judgement of both files, but does it seem like there are some slight speed/flutter issues in both files?

What soundcard is it?

"B" is absolutely terrible. Sounds like I'm listening through a thick carpet. Aside from the azimuth being REALLY off (or worn head), I also observed the crackle, likely caused by issues from the (I'm guessing) JX707 transport- My 505 had similar issues when I first repaired it.

"A" sounds much better. Sounds a little like my JX-505.

That Dragon sounds great. I have a BX-125 that needs a major overhaul- control motor issues, crackling on recording, possibly caps.

Going to a wild guess and say A is TPS-L2, due to that one always been brighter. But like plop say not really fair untill B get's fixed. The JX707 sound good not like a d6c but still pretty good when working right, but the head they use limit it's a bit. Wish they use the AIWA's hyperbolic shaped HX head.

I sold my working HS-JX707 to "TapeChick", the other one I have haven't recapped it yet, so won't be able to compare it. But maybe the JX3000 as it uses the same transport. 

I do rebuilt those including take apart the motor, it due to corrosion on contacts of motor as it has dead spots. One way to fix it beside tearing the motor apart is to spary contact cleaner into the back end and turn it a few time then run DC power to it for a few minutes, will work good as new, just make sure you drop oil into the bearing

That is the procedure I am planning to do. I hear that there are replacement motors available as well.

It a Sankyo transport, parts are easy to come by, as you can use pretty much any deck that uses that transport, for parts as needed

Here one of a recapped, rebuilted AIWA HS-JX3000 since pretty much the same internals as a HS-JX707, much more fair. Assuming that "B" is the aiwa, but could be wrong? Watch in HD 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nkBhoZAEYHE

Excellent job on the JX3000. BBE is on I suppose? Sounds great.

Shame I can't get either one of mine to work after re-capping- Board issues.

While the voice navigation can be heard loud and clear, no music comes through for one board and only on one channel for the other (both tape and radio). Flex cables seem fine, wonder if there is a muting circuit or broken trace somewhere? If anyone can point me in a direction that will be great. I'm still missing a battery pack as well.

Both walkmans have been serviced. the TPS-L2 only had to change belts but the jx707 has been recapped, rebelted and all that. I remember it also had one or two bad switches to change. so they are compared in same conditions, to be fair.

The tape were played (and recorded) without dolby, BBE or DSL. in the TPS-L2, it was in high position, as the FRC is more plain and adecuate than "low" position. In the JX707, as it has auto tape selector, I didn't adjust anything.

AIWA's are very tricky to service, the one shown had the same problems before, low audio, alot of crackle, one channel didn't work at all, motor noise could be heard during playback.

So ended up doing a total rebuilt, removed all capacitors and even IC's gave board very good cleaning, reason why you have to remove IC's is due to electrolytics get under those IC causing that crackling and other issue. You can't just use isopropylic alcohol as electrolytics is electrical conductivity plus has acid effect. you need to neutralize the acid with a base, then deoxidize the switches that are on the PCB their two that control the channel of the head and record/playback, the dump the PCB into a ultra sonic cleaner with triple elements and 300w heater and use PCB cleaner, repair broken traces and replace all capacitors with japan grade caps and install IC's As far as transport remove most the gears and old lubrication as it does become sticky which cause alot of problems with this transports, relube transport where needed and clean pulleys, install new belt. Then install new memory battery in door assy where tuner board is. As far as head, check the wear if it bad then replace the whole assy, most of the time alignment goes bad due to spring, so end up changing it,  also check pinch rollors as they do go soft. Get everything back togetheir. Now works like new and have a good success rate with them.

I learn you cannot shortcut and miss any step on these, otherwise you will be pulling it back apart and always check the ribbion cable to tuner board "door" seen alot of these fail due to ribbon crease up as it rubs the edge and overtime fail. If that the case can be repaired but that deserve a whole another topic.   

Although I try my best to neutralize and clean the board, I do not remove the ICs. That is perhaps why I have issues with the board.

Did you also replace the tantalums on the board? I've only replaced the electrolytics.

Sometimes I do if they test bad, but it rare, more common on Sony for them to go bad.

That is interesting...

I'd say that the Sony is likely to be 'A' in that case and 'B' is the AIWA.

I base this reasoned guess on the possibility that 'B' is the AIWA, since it is more likely to have some transport issues that have not yet been addressed (commonly seen on some examples of AIWA even after 'servicing'). Of particular note is the azimuth, since this cannot be easily adjusted on the JX707. Perhaps the head may be one that has worn down non-uniformly due to being misaligned since day 1 from the factory causing the severe treble cut off and phase distortion. Besides that, anyone competent servicing a walkman should at least check and therefore correct the azimuth if it has drifted off spec! Also since the playback reveals inconsistant speed and noticeable wow and flutter issues with any servicing the pinch rollers, capstans and, pulley wheels would be cleaned that there may be damage to the tape guides on the pinch roller assembly too. If the pinch roller assembly were to be damaged, then the only remedy is to replace the part, and a fix only achievable with a replacement part.

Walkman 'A' isn't perfect but it is generally listenable. Azimuth does seem to be adjusted correctly to match the recording source. Wow and flutter are barely noticeable in the main. The TPS-L2 has a more reliable transport and so, I'd say on balance it is probably 'A'.

The fact that I never truly enjoyed listening to type 2 on my only (admittedly worn) TPS-L2 due to the lack of a proper tape type switch confirms my suspicion that "A" is a little too bright. The tone switch is either too dull or too bright.

Like what plop said, azimuth adjustment on your 707 is very difficult. I also encountered the broken tape guide on 2 of my JX707s, which REALLY skewed the azimuth off to the point that it was unusable. Thankfully, I found another JX70 to get the pinch roller guide from. There should be two plastic "guide posts" on each pinch roller assembly. Now I just need to repair the board.

No, bub, I'm 99.99% sure it's a problem of auto gain when recording. The computer is a very high quality components (first brands, high level models, etc..) and the soundcard is one of the best consumer soundcards ever made: the Creative X-fi Elite Pro, aimed to musicians, which offers up to 116dB of SNR (at 24bits / 96kHz) and costed about 400$. 

Reviews here, here and wikipedia info here.

I really don't think that's the problem. when I was recording it, I didn't notice that noise at all, so if I'm hearing it now is because something changed while recording; that means it's not a good recording. However, when listening to the songs and not the silence betweem them, it seems very close to the original sound.

It not from the soundcard, as I used a Auzen X-Fi HD, which uses same chipset and never had that problem.

Do believe it coming from the d6c recordings as I also notice that whine with the other files you play from the d6c with dolby NR off, but when you had dolby b/c on the other two files that whine when away, which tell me it not the card or impedances issue, but if it was it would be a steady tone.

It sounds like a problem with the AC bias oscillator circuit capacitors or filter stage, on that d6c, or it's not bias for that tape stock correctly. One of my customer units had that same problem, recapped it and upgrading the opamp fix the issues and set bias using his tape that he mostly going to use and using a signal generator at 1khz and 10khz to 12khz and scope to bias with changing the resistor, as various tolerances each machine instead of just the jumper pads to set bias fixed the issue.

Plus monitoring it while recording not going to tell you anything, as it's not a three head deck, so you can't hear what recorded on the tape, you are just hearing the source. Reason why you may have not notice it.

Sounds like a serious issue if it's the D6C's fault and this whine could be heard on every recording made. It will make it very difficult to enjoy.

no, no, no. Maybe I explained myself bad. The problem is the recording... of the wav file! I mean:

- My D6C modded by Dr Walkman is perfect.

- The reference songs I recorded in the UX Pro is perfect too.

- The walkmans A and B sounds absolutely without that sound.

- the problem appears when recording the output from those walkmans into a digital (WAV) file in my computer, but it's not related to the sound card. It's the recording software, that has an auto gain function that was active without I'm realizing that.

But as I said, I'm out of home and I could not record them again until a few days when I'm back. In fact, I realize that most of the (about 50) recordings I've done in the last months are probably bad too. 

What recording software do you use?

It's the embedded software that comes with the card: cretive recorder or something similar.

It has a checkbox that allows to monitoring the input signal and a button to analyze and adjust gain, but I didn't realize that even without pressing that button it adjusts the gain automatically.

Perhaps try Audacity? I normally use Soundbooth to record from my tapes to wav.

I have poor experiences with creative's software and drivers. (Applies to their DAP firmwares as well.)

Sucks that you have to re-transfer 50 tapes!

You should rerecord file B because sounds like you record at a low bit rate.

Yeah, I know audacity and I use it to crop and small edits, but I can also try it to record. But first I want to try ti uncheck that checkbox. the creative software is so simple, but it has a nice auto-start when level rises XX dB that is very useful.

Well, it's not 50 tapes, but 50 times my 12-minute audio test...

What? I don't understand what you mean...

What I mean by this is that Walkman B sounds quite dull and lifeless than A, so you should set Walkman B up properly. It makes the differences apparent.

One good thing about the Sony TPS-L2 over the Aiwa JX-707 is the separate L/R volume control, hot-line function and best, dual headphone jacks.

And the winner is?

Inconclusive because his JX707 is not working properly, and the TPS-L2 does not really have a proper mode for Type II/IV.

Well, here it goes the solution:

Walkman A = SONY TPS-L2

Walkman B = AIWA JX707

Does this means that an old TPS-L2 sounds better than a supertech JX707? Well, It's not easy to say that. But, as Plop said, the interesting data to know before choosing an option is to know that both are serviced.

This means that both have new belts, etc.. and azimuth adjusted (if it's possible). And here's the main key: in the AIWA there's no possibility to adjust it. And this my JX707 has it badly adjusted, so it sounds dull. So it's not a fair comparison until I find another JX707 with a better adjusted azimuth.

But, all in all, I think that the TPS-L2 has much better presence and headroom over the 707, even that it has no bias adjustment.

But I'll upload again new recordings (this time well done) for better judgement. And another JX707 for better comparison.

Retro's JX3000 puts it in perspective: properly done, it sounds great. You can't really compare unless both are in their prime. As the TPS-L2 has no setting for Cr02, it will always sound too bright in "high" tone. Not a fair comparison.

Your 707 in its current state sounds worse than some of the worst units I own. There is also a small amount of flutter. It is however, in absolutely stunning cosmetic condition.

I'd suggest a more fair comparison be made with a JX707 perhaps a WM-2 or Aiwa S30.

The S30 can be seen as the equivalent of the TPS-L2, and like the 707, is considered one of the high end models of its era. It also has a switch for Cr02/Metal. It is difficult to restore though.

You're right. It's not a fair comparison.

But the main reason to do it is that I thought that it's so interesting to see how a modern player with fixed azimuth can sound much worse than a teoretichal worse player, but with non-fixed azimuth.

In the end, what's important is not if it has this or that feature, but how good does it sounds. So one can search and buy an JX707 and be very disappointed about it, just because that feature.

As has already been discussed, fixed azimuth is a lottery.

I'll repeat the test and I think it would be interesting to pick a JX505 with dual-azimuth to compare.

I don't have a S30, but maybe my J02 is worth, after servicing. Are they from the same year or so, right?

Hi,

I'm back again with news about this issue.

After spending some time listening carefully to the recordings and sources, I finally found the problem.

First I have to say that the MP3 that is online and I embedded in this thread has a more noticiable background whine than the original recording (in WAV, uncompressed format). Also, I have to say that if you listen directly from your standard or embedded sound card and -specially- standard windows driver then the whine is very noticeable. This is specially true if you have activated the loudness feature.

With a high quality sound card and headphones is less noticeable.

So after experimenting, I saw that the original recording had it, recording from other input also gives it, and playing the same tape in the same TPS-L2, I could hear it (but it is about two- three times less loud). Then I realized that playing in the same D6C is also heard, and many other tapes I already recorded had it.

So I was scared that maybe my modded D6C was, in fact, recording this whine in the tape. So I picked up other D6C I have at home, recorded a tape without signal and it also gives the same whine...

(In fact I was so sure that it could not be my excellent modded D6C by Dr Walkman. I have so much trust in him that if he told me that the sound is extraordinary, I trust him that actually it has to be)

So, what's happenning here? Well, after this I realized that the power supply can induce it. but not the computer's one, the walkman's supply.

That's it! I changed it for batteries and the whine is gone!! For both D6C!

So the problem was recorded into the tape, but induced by an -actually good- power supply. So it seems the D6C is very sensitive to this and it's better to use batteries, rather than power supply.

Well, that's the good news. the bad news is that all my tapes are badly recorded 

As soon as I can, I'll replace the recordings in this thread, so you can feel the real comparison...

Cheers,

Hugo

www.walkman-archive.com

The Aiwa should sound better than the Sony if it is renewed because of the Amorphous head. What type of head material does the TPS-L2 use? Is it Ferrite?

S30 will win against WM-2 in frequency response.

S30: 16000hz

WM-2: 15000hz

If you're comparing the sound of all them just by the specs, then I think you're making a mistake. A fair comparison cannot be done unless you listen carefully to each of them. Specs are valid but just up to a point. They don't tell the whole story...

Did no one notice the terrible instability on recording B??

Piano notes made me cringe & as for the poor guitar, it never stood a chance!!

So bad, if it is not the motor or belts then I would say the capstan is not true.....yeah it sounds that bad along with all the other things that the others mention!! That is seriously unstable