hello guys!
I have a question for you guys.
I have a dolby-s cabable cassette deck - the Sony TC-K511S. Now I know this is not a high-end deck, it's actually nowhere near high-end, but nevertheless it has given me hours of joy. The question is regarding it's dolby-s recording capability. I have a DC2 walkman which has dolby-c noise reduction decoder.
I was wondering, what is the better option:
1) record the tapes without any kind of noise reduction
2. record in dolby-c so that it is compatible with the DC2 walkman
3) record in dolby-s and set the decoder on the DC2 to dolby-b because I have read they are compatible
Which out of these options will give me optimal playback on the DC2 walkman? I suppose dolby-s is better than dolby-c and my recordings sound better on the deck itself if I record them with dolby-s and play them that way.
This is a bit of a dilemma. Good quality tapes are expensive these days so I can only afford to record so many.
Thanks for your help!
Best way to explain this without going into two or more pages. Dolby S works with an even broader range of frequencies than Dolby C, and achieves slightly greater noise reduction. Its has advantages over Dolby C, tapes recorded and played back using Dolby S sound closer to the original than tapes done using Dolby C tapes recorded using Dolby S don't sound awful if played back on Dolby B decks, and Dolby S seems to be less sensitive to variations among decks. You have to use better quality tape
Personally I would say stay away from all Dolby noice reduction, Dolby chops of the top end gives you less dynamic range. I record from my Nakamichi CR7 onto TDK MA-XG’s with no NR and play it on my walkmans that include D6C, DC2, DD9 and DD33 they all sound amazing.
So option 1 no NR.
Chris
i agree with toocool4. unless you are dealing with some old concert bootlegs full of tape hiss go with nothing. find the level of hiss you can deal with and stop there. dolby takes away the brightness on about everything. there still are alot of "decent" tapes on ebay for 1-2 dollars each. if ya really feel lucky hit the thrift store occasionally. my problem is the tapes i sometimes find are too valuable to use. i hate to use sealed metal tape worth about 10 bucks. i keep an eye out for any high grade tapes that i erase and then use.
Okay guys thanks! The best way to decide is that I just record a tape in different ways and see what I like best.
I was also considering of getting a better deck. I was looking for a dolby s machine, but the way you explained things just right now, I just might go with dolby c only which makes more to choose from really. I will see what I get.
Thanks for all your help!
I can't really agree with not using Dolby or claiming it does not work.
Dolby Encoded tapes are intended to be Dolby Decoded to greatly reduce noise. As if the tape
is properly Dolby Encoded the Decoded sound is the true sound of the recording, as we all know when recordings are Dolby Encoded it increases the intelligibility of the sound, in very crude
terms when Encoded it adds a treble effect so when the recoding is Decoded it restores the treble back down to the true level....that is
why Dolby sounds like it takes some of the treble (high end) out...but
really does not, a recording with Dolby had too much to start. And for a true accurate playback/Decoding of Dolby you must Decode with the same Dolby-Type as the Encoding (whether it be A,B,C,S or SR). So I would recommend getting a new Cassette Deck with B or C, to correspond with your Walkman, I only use Dolby B as my Walkmans only Decode in B even though my deck can Encode with C too! I have an Luxman cassette Deck and it records beautifully, high-end and they are not that expensive on Ebay. And for better sound use Chrome tapes (Type 2, they are less expensive and easier to find than Metal) they sound much better and like most high end decks like the Luxmans, they support Type-2 recording. Even on a side note; if you really like the high-end of a tape with over intelligibility AND want noise-reduction, record on to a Chrome cassette in NORMAL-position while Dolby Encoding too, then on playback set the EQ to Chrome and Decode with Dolby, The high end will still be there as if you were not using Dolby!!! Trust me it works well!
And low-end Decks record terribly and this is the main reason for people believing Dolby is terrible ect.. Low-end decks also don't take advantage of High-end Typed cassettes, even if they have a selector, they sound terrible; reduced high-end frequencies and their Dolby will not work properly....
quote:
Originally posted by laserdiscs:
I can't really agree with not using Dolby or claiming it does not work.
Dolby Encoded tapes are intended to be Dolby Decoded to greatly reduce noise. As if the tape
is properly Dolby Encoded the Decoded sound is the true sound of the recording, as we all know when recordings are Dolby Encoded it increases the intelligibility of the sound, in very crude
terms when Encoded it adds a treble effect so when the recoding is Decoded it restores the treble back down to the true level....that is
why Dolby sounds like it takes some of the treble (high end) out...but
really does not, a recording with Dolby had too much to start. And for a true accurate playback/Decoding of Dolby you must Decode with the same Dolby-Type as the Encoding (whether it be A,B,C,S or SR). So I would recommend getting a new Cassette Deck with B or C, to correspond with your Walkman, I only use Dolby B as my Walkmans only Decode in B even though my deck can Encode with C too! I have an Luxman cassette Deck and it records beautifully, high-end and they are not that expensive on Ebay. And for better sound use Chrome tapes (Type 2, they are less expensive and easier to find than Metal) they sound much better and like most high end decks like the Luxmans, they support Type-2 recording. Even on a side note; if you really like the high-end of a tape with over intelligibility AND want noise-reduction, record on to a Chrome cassette in NORMAL-position while Dolby Encoding too, then on playback set the EQ to Chrome and Decode with Dolby, The high end will still be there as if you were not using Dolby!!! Trust me it works well!
And low-end Decks record terribly and this is the main reason for people believing Dolby is terrible ect.. Low-end decks also don't take advantage of High-end Typed cassettes, even if they have a selector, they sound terrible; reduced high-end frequencies and their Dolby will not work properly....
Agreed 100% percent.
Use Dolby S It is basically a cut down version of Dolby SR and uses many of the same noise reduction techniques. Dolby S is much more resistant to playback problems caused by noise from the tape transport mechanism than Dolby C and will work with Dolby B encoding.
I only use dolby b as it is on the walkman
This is very interesting guys! I will try that on my deck. It will be very interesting to hear the results I am sure. I still haven't taken advantage of the manual bias tuning but will do so as soon as get a hold of it. Thanks!
quote:
Originally posted by rerooted:
my problem is the tapes i sometimes find are too valuable to use. i hate to use sealed metal tape worth about 10 bucks. i keep an eye out for any high grade tapes that i erase and then use.
I always use the Best tape availble metal then chrome, etc. I dont ever re-record over any cassette's unless it's a voice recording-there its not nessarily a quality of sound needed. All of my Music Mix tapes are always recorded Using the VERY Best Formulation tape TDK Maxell metal, & And I prefer to ONLY Record once on these Hi-end tapes as subquesent erasing and re-recording sometime's doesn't remove the previous recording completly, So all Of my Music tapes are on virgin-new tape. I love to use the best tape for Music as I am only here once & desire to hear the best, and I can always get another metal tape from somewhere!
Yeah I'd love to use them but they are expensive. There is no way for me to get them other than ebay and most people are not that willing to ship worldwide. As for re-recording, I have never done that.
quote:
Originally posted by laserdiscs:
And low-end Decks record terribly and this is the main reason for people believing Dolby is terrible ect.. Low-end decks also don't take advantage of High-end Typed cassettes, even if they have a selector, they sound terrible; reduced high-end frequencies and their Dolby will not work properly....
I would hardly call a Nakamichi deck a low-end deck let a lone a CR7. I make recordings and people who think tapes are a second rate music carrier say to me where’s the hiss, It sounds amazing.
Chris
quote:
Originally posted by toocool4:
I would hardly call a Nakamichi deck a low-end deck let a lone a CR7. I make recordings and people who think tapes are a second rate music carrier say to me where’s the hiss, It sounds amazing.
Chris
Sorry for the confusion, but I was not really directing that statement to anyone in particular, especially a Nak, I do understand how high-end a Nak is. Although I was a little confused with Tuna's Sony with Dolby S, as I was in the understanding that only very high-end late cassette players had Dolby S, even more so when Tuna mentioned it not to be high-end, is it possible the Sony just does not sound high-end because it is working improperly? Head-adjustment, demagnetized, worn-head ect..?
Stick with Dolby S unless the dc2 is the only walkman you plan on using, Dolby S is a stripped down version of Dolby SR which is what they use for prerecords. Which will sound good in most machines just have to use dolby b when playing back.
quote:
Originally posted by DrMR2000:
Stick with Dolby S unless the dc2 is the only walkman you plan on using, Dolby S is a stripped down version of Dolby SR which is what they use for prerecords. Which will sound good in most machines just have to use dolby b when playing back.
Well, I like using all my cassette players, not just the DC2 so I will try all the options you gave suggested. But for now, recording tapes in dolby-c kust to be compatible with the dc2 is unlikely because the dc2 is the only dolby-c walkman I have at the moment.
Just one thing I don't get. What benefits will I get if I record on a type-2 tape but setting up the deck to type-1 tape? What are the differences because, frankly I never even thought of that option before?
Setting to different type other then the tape you are using, never try that, but Setting bias is scrutinized in greater detail if set right. most good decks have a manual adjustment for this.
To sum it up going negative makes recordings duller and going positive makes recordings brighter...
Note: On a three-head deck, record bass sweep while monitoring via Playback head. Align the low-frequency EQ until the last peak and dip fall on equal sides of “0 VU,” then select a low frequency that falls on “0 VU.”
On a two-head deck, record bass sweep, “PAR,” noting the peaks and dips, then select a low frequency that falls on “0 VU.
Try it and see you will find that you get better high frequency response.
Since I only use mainly type IV tapes I record in type IV and play back in type I in deck’s I cannot control the EQ.
On the Nakamichi I record in the correct EQ as the tapes require different bias energy for recording i.e. 70 micro seconds for metal tapes, but when I play it back on the Nakamichi I playback in type IV but set the EQ to 120 micro seconds.
So if you are using metal or chrome tapes record in the correct mode, then when you are play it back try flipping the tape type from the correct one to normal. See if you can hear the difference.
Chris
Always check the azimuth and demagnetizing the heads and capstan on a used deck, before using it for recording, if you want your recording to sound at there best.
Note: Using isopropanol will work well for cleaning the heads and the capstan, it will dry out and harden the surface of the rubber roll, which is not good...
To fine tune the bias, record some off-channel FM interstation noise, as this hissing sound approximates pink noise. Set the recording level at -20 db on the recording meters, and record a minute or so of noise on a fresh tape, The Dolby noise reduction should be left turned off. Then play back the tape while switching between the tape and the same FM source, try and match the levels if possible so you are hearing a difference in tonal balance and not just volume.
If your deck's bias is properly set for the tape, the recording will sound almost identical to the FM source. If it sounds too dull or too bright, your deck is not properly set for this brand of tape, then try adjusting the bias fine tune until you find a setting that gives you a recording that sounds as close as possible to the original.
If you want to have your deck fully recallibrated for a specific brand of tape, including Dolby calibration, a good repair shop can do this in under an hour. If your deck needs other work done to it such as having the belts replaced, it makes sense to have the deck callibrated for your favorite tape formulations at the same time.
You can do this with a two head deck, it justs takes longer to get the bias set properly than with a three head deck where you can monitor the recording as it is being made and hear the results of any bias adjustments in real time as you switch back and forth between the source and the tape being made.
Wow guys thanks! I never imagined this is so interesting. It's a Sony deck so I gues it was calibrated on Sony tapes which I use. Sony is still available here whereas TDK chrome and other tapes are not. Although I have noticed that TDK SA sound better than Sony UX-S on the deck.
Also, I have tried to play chrome and metal tapes with deck set to normal. The high frequencies are more pronounced and see, ,ore open, but also more agressive and vocals on some tracks seem too exaggerated. It is nothing critical though and I can see why some like it.
I don't think the deck needs any service. It has almost never been used and has been fully serviced by the previous owner who changed the belts (he's quite an expert and has 86 tape decks in his home!). FAnyway, for now it is the best thing I can do, maybe later I will get something better. I am waiting for the cd player to arrive so I have a good source to record from and to fully get to know the deck and it's operation. I never knew there are so many ways to affect the sound whis is very interesting to me. It makes this technology more worthwhile to get the grasp of it imo because you can leave a part of yourself in each recording you make so to speak. It may not suit other people tastes but if I like it, that is all that matters, right?
quote:
Originally posted by Tuna:
Wow guys thanks! I never imagined this is so interesting. It's a Sony deck so I gues it was calibrated on Sony tapes which I use. Sony is still available here whereas TDK chrome and other tapes are not. Although I have noticed that TDK SA sound better than Sony UX-S on the deck.
Also, I have tried to play chrome and metal tapes with deck set to normal. The high frequencies are more pronounced and see, ,ore open, but also more agressive and vocals on some tracks seem too exaggerated. It is nothing critical though and I can see why some like it.
I don't think the deck needs any service. It has almost never been used and has been fully serviced by the previous owner who changed the belts (he's quite an expert and has 86 tape decks in his home!). FAnyway, for now it is the best thing I can do, maybe later I will get something better. I am waiting for the cd player to arrive so I have a good source to record from and to fully get to know the deck and it's operation. I never knew there are so many ways to affect the sound whis is very interesting to me. It makes this technology more worthwhile to get the grasp of it imo because you can leave a part of yourself in each recording you make so to speak. It may not suit other people tastes but if I like it, that is all that matters, right?
Indeed it really comes down to preference (especially when listening/Playback on a Walkman), I agree you can tell a lot about someone (or Sound Engineer) by listening to their recording (on cassette or what have you). It is like a personality, I have many Cr02 cassettes that I had recorded in Normal Bias & playback in Type-2 (Cr02) EQ, with great results and the other way round. I find It depends on the source of the recording for me, some require only the correct appropriate method and others do not, often it takes more time for me to EQ and set-up the recording than to actually record!
If you have a really high-end Deck you will get perfect results (copies) if you stick to selecting the appropriate Bias and EQ's during Recording and Playback...but still the source of the recording could still demand a deviance of this rule.
