Your opinion about wow&flutter on walkmans

This is a very important aspect which can clearly influence the results of a test. To me, the way to adress this issue is to choose a piece of music which none of the test subjects have listened to before: this way there isn't a mental image of how that particular piece of music "should" sound.

Have read the article on your website, it's a good read with very good points and I recommend everyone to go and have a look.

@CDV It seems there are some aspects that will need to be adressed in a future test:
1. What @Jorge said about the fact that in each test there must be a negative control; An ABX test should also be considered;
2. Tape speeds of all tested units must be matched: I'd say probably a +/-10Hz is acceptable, but more than that will be audible and influence the results;
3. The volumes should also be matched: although not critical for this test, as we don't listen for distorsion or soundstage, it's another variable that is better to be taken out of the equation;

 

@Valentin and @CDV - you put together the most informative read on the subject, Many Thanks! Any chance of getting a link or full review mentioned by @CDV 1993 Stereo Review buyer's guide ? Looks very interesting.
Right now my only deck is Yamaha KX-330, I had this same model in the 90-ies when I did a Lot of recordings from CDs to cassettes.
here is a table for the decks I had over the last 5-7 years:

Any idea where 0.10% for TEAC should be placed? I copied the exact W&F sentence from its Service Manual, the last word 'max' confuses me because it might mean Peak. Considering the age/price/build quality, it should be WTD RMS.
Unfortunately, I did not take a single photo of my CR-2 rebuild, only my struggles with its Sankyo mechanism. But it is interesting to see the 'evolution' from A-100 to LX-3/5 and then back to KX-360:

 

This website has many old audio-video-television magazines: https://worldradiohistory.com/Archive-All-Audio/HiFI-Stereo-Review.htm

 

In my opinion, given they state it's WRMS, that's the maximum accepted figure for wow&flutter, but in general they expect lower than that. I think of it similar to a parameter in a component datasheet, with MIN, TYPICAL and MAX columns.
Here, they give the maximum, but the typical value that's expected for most units is likely in the 0.06% WRMS area.

 

Actually the owner/designer of a speaker manufacturers in the UK stated this in a documentary I watched the other day on the Tube:
During final tweaking of the design before production, they listen to the songs played in reverse to remove any emotional connection with the song.
I’ll try to find the link to the video.

 

Here is the video from Harbeth Loudspeakers I was referring to. The relevant part from 25 minutes onwards:

The owner Alan Shaw (also the speaker designer) explains the importance of breaking the emotional connection to objectively judge the output.
Read the accompanying article and photos here: https://www.spitfireaudio.com/editorial/features/harbeth-loudspeakers-factory-visit/

 

So far I have only 1 (one) usable response. Oh, well, apparently this is not something that is interesting to walkman lovers

 

And that response was not mine . Can’t find the time to sit down and listen properly unfortunately.. or order new parts for Walkmans from Fix Your Audio.

 

In my opinion, the lack of answers is caused by a couple of things:

1. The test is too complex, with too many tracks and that random letters and numbers on files is something that made the test even harder to follow.
2. The fact that people have to download from GDrive is another step that many simply won't make. In the era we live in, convenience is very important.
3. People are not that interested in this test anyway

I'll post the results of my test, as I won't get more responses anyway:

A: 0.28% WRMS
B: 0.08% WRMS

2 out of 3 responses said could not make a difference between A and B. The fourth said A had the higher wow&flutter, but did say the difference was much smaller (0.1% WRMS instead of 0.2%).

The results corresponds to my expectations, as I wanted to prove that very fast music will mask a higher wow&flutter figure a lot more than slower or slow music.
Of course, it is to be noted the track that I chose is not by any means a reference and was chosen because of how fast it is. I'm well aware that probably no one on this forum listens to that kind of music, but that's not the point.
Rather, the point is to give a best case scenario for wow&flutter and see what will happen in this scenario. On the opposite side of the spectrum is @CDV 's test, which uses music with long constant tones. This should not be a reference either, even if this is a more relatable music to many members.
In my view, the reality in somewhere in the middle, an average between the two, maybe leaning a little more towards the slower music. Of course, if one listens to classical music a lot, probably a DD walkman is the one to choose, as these go to 0.08% WRMS or below (which is certainly good enough even for classical music).

 

@Valentin, have you watched another of my videos? I don't listen to classical all the time. Feel free to skip to 2:20. When it still worked, WFGUI showed about 0.23% WRMS. It is dead now, I suppose the belt snapped.

Fourteen people voted. I wonder who are all the five people who chose 0.3% WRMS as tolerable?

 

Thanks for sharing @Valentin and @CDV.
0.23% for the cheaper built Walkman is really good and on the low side for that mechanism, especially considering that the 701C from @walkman archive after service was above 0.25%.
I voted 0.30%, as I have listened to a fresh recording of Use your illusion I recently on various devices.
Recorded from Apple Music > iPhone with DAC > WM-D6C onto new RTM type 1, one side with Dolby NR B and other C.
Some units are above 0.45% and it actually is not bothering me.
For instance the not yet serviced B603 with only a different, not entirely new belt.

 

In this video with the WM-FX281 it seems the tape speed is slower than it should. When you insert the first cassette, it seems to me it is initially palying faster and then the tape speed suddenly drops and becomes uneven (possibly the belt was slipping).
However in terms of wow&flutter, I don't perceive anything annoying, it's just the tape speed that it bothering.
I also watched one with an FX-407 with Grieg, which you refer to on the first page. On that one, the wow&flutter is pretty noticeable and starts to be at the boundary between acceptable and not acceptable. If I were to listen only to that kind of music I would consider it unacceptable. Othwerise, it's probably acceptable.

Are there other videos that should I watch ? I watched more than these, but can't remember any reference one in regard to wow&flutter on walkmans.

I have a question for you also: what wow&flutter figure did the unit which you recorded the test tape on has ? If you measure the unit itself with the tape recorded on it, what figure do you get ?

 

I missed out on responding to both the surveys, but I too couldn't figure out which of has the higher W+F.

And personally I found this one to be acceptable in terms of W+F.

Another test that I think would be of interest is to play the same music on a large range of W+F. The goal would be to find out at what point does the particular piece of music becomes unacceptable. I have some higher-end, good-sounding and speed-calibrated units, but I have no way to measure their W+F due to a lack of calibrated equipment.

I do a little servicing on the side, mostly of the "plastic" newer generation walkmans like the one ond CDV's video, and I'm quite amazed by the variation of w+f that people consider good. Sometimes I'm unable to fix things fully, and the sound isn't up to my standard, but the owner thinks it's totally fine. And many "fully functional" units I bought sounds terrible. Though this one my just be dishonest sellers...

 

The variation of wow&flutter people consider good probably comes from a combination of the type of music they're listening to and how much attention they're paying to this particular aspect. For example, something like 0.2% WRMS,
although completely audible on slow music, it's still acceptable and may get completely un-noticed on music that's just slightly faster. Some people may even like a little wow&flutter and associate it with the analog warmth many descibe.
That's totally fine and it's down to individual preferences at the end of the day.

 

@Valentin, I used factory-recorded tape with Grieg to ensure that the tape has as little residual W&F as possible because I don't have a hi-end deck. So, in the case of FX407 it was 0.2% WRMS altogether, and it was not good enough. For the FX281 I recorded tapes on my RS-TR333, which has about 0.07% WRMS, so about 0.3% WRMS altogether. All these numbers are obtained using non-professional measuring tape, so I guess we can nock down about 0.02% from the numbers. This would not change the outcome to me: 0.2% WRMS is unacceptable.

I don't have absolute pitch, but I am extremely happy the digital revolution has happened, and I can listen to music free of W&F and hiss.

 

@stuck-in-time, you still can vote in my poll, I want to gather at least 10 results, although it seems unlikely now

To everyone else: please, listen to samples and vote on my poll, send your answers via private message. There is no need to download from Google Docs, you can listen right there.

 

@Emiel, 0.25% WRMS for an upscale walkman is completely unacceptable to me. I would not pay real money for it. Which is why the DD family looks all the more attractive now